Nature in Mind: Interview with Dr. Bruno Marques

Dr Bruno Marques is a landscape architect and educator. He completed his Landscape Architecture studies at the University of Lisbon (Portugal) and Berlin Technical University (Germany), followed by his PhD studies at the University of Otago (New Zealand). Bruno has practised in Germany, Estonia, the United Kingdom and New Zealand, having an extensive portfolio of projects. During the past ten years at Victoria University of Wellington in New Zealand, he has developed a comprehensive research agenda to embrace the formulation of frameworks on landscape rehabilitation, cultural landscapes, place-making and Indigenous community health and well-being. He is currently the Associate Dean for the Faculty of Architecture and Design Innovation and the President of the International Federation of Landscape Architects (IFLA). 

Annetta Benzar:  We're going to talk about your connection with the Maori tribe a little bit later, but what first kind of drew you to that community? What was it about them that interested you, especially as a landscape architect or just as a person, as a human being?

Dr. Bruno Marques: Well, as I said, I was always particularly attuned to people and behaviour because of my family background. But also, when I was starting my career and I was even doing my Master's degree, I was very interested in phenomenology, understanding how the relationship of people in the wider environment actually operates. So, I think that was always there, that curiosity, but as life goes on, I kind of parked that aside for a while.

When I came to New Zealand, I just realized, Oh gosh, this is exactly what I was interested in a couple of years ago, so this is a perfect opportunity to engage with that. I did that, particularly through my teaching. I took students to spend some time with a local Maori tribe where they could hear all those narratives, all those metaphors. We started by walking, engaging with that physical aspect of the landscape to start seeing all the invisible layers as you are there, trying to understand it from a different perspective.

And I just thought, Oh, this is my people, the people I want to engage with because it was a wealth of knowledge in terms of understanding not only Eastern culture but also how natural systems work together. How the forces of nature influence each other, like from the lunar phases to the tidal movements, to the floods that are generally seen as a blessing, as it was in Ancient Egypt. If you think back to the Nile, when the floods came, it was a period of renewal because it brought more organic matter, more alluvium, and richness for the soils, and you could have farming to sustain people. Here was just that maze of understanding those different elements in this, and also that everything was linked together.

And that's been very eye-opening, particularly from a landscape architecture point of view, which we kind of know, but we sometimes intentionally ignore, that whatever you do, it's all interlinked. And if you don't understand that web of connections, you may destabilize an ecosystem, or you may actually damage the entire landscape. So, I think it was just that system thinking and the complex thinking that was very eye-opening, in a way.

Annetta Benzar: On the subject of connection, how does landscape architecture address today's critical challenges? So, climate change, organization, health inequalities, what is the role of the landscape architect in Europe?

Dr. Bruno Marques: Well, without sounding presumptuous, I do think we are very well-positioned to tackle some of those issues. The reason is that our education is quite broad, as a discipline and as a profession. Landscape architects are equipped with many different tools in their toolbox, from the hardcore sciences to the creative arts, from the social sciences and culture point of view.

When we talk with other professionals, we can understand their language. We can bring different disciplines that may be seen as more specialized together because we can relate those concepts, and we can make sure we can facilitate that dialogue. So, when we look into the global challenges that we are witnessing now, it's very interesting. I've been quite active this year, attending many of the United Nations events, and I just feel that we have so much to contribute because we understand what [other disciplines] are saying. But we can put some of those concepts into action because we can actually design, we can produce outcomes, and we can provide case study examples, successful stories, and so on.

We can say that even this year, which has been a work-in-progress for the last two or three years, the guidelines presented at the last COP for climate change really bring all those case studies as best practices onto the table. Therefore, whoever is dealing with a built environment or in policymaking can understand that it's far more complex. But here are these professionals who can bring some interesting solutions to the table, and we can see that across climate change, diversity laws, urbanization issues, and social issues. I think we are finally getting to a point where also the global awareness of what the profession is and can offer is becoming better.

I think mostly, and this has always been my attitude, even within IFLA, is that you can't expect people to know what we do. But we can educate them. We can show them what the power of what we do is, and by showing them all those successful stories, evidence, and great examples, they can go back and say, oh look, we just met this amazing group of people, and they're doing amazing things, we need to bring them on board into these discussions.

Because we are missing an important piece of the equation here. So that's where, I think, we fit into this big picture. We can understand the issue, we can bring different ideas, concepts, and professions together, and you start seeing a little bit of that across countries, like even here in New Zealand, where landscape architects are now leading the projects. So, it's no longer the conception that the architect is almighty and can do everything. But we're getting to the point here where people understand that landscape architects have far more to offer than what initially thought, so yeah.

Annetta Benzar: You mentioned IFLA, and you're currently serving as the president of the organization, can you tell me what IFLA is, and some of its main aims and goals?

Dr. Bruno Marques: IFLA, the International Federation of Landscape Architects, is a federation of professional bodies established in 1948 and headquartered in Versailles, Paris. Our mandate is to protect the interests of landscape architects globally, and we do that by focusing on education, training, professional practice, and research as well. We have within our membership 80 national member associations and across the globe. We are organized in five regions: the Americas, Africa, Asia-Pacific, Middle East, and Europe. We have about a hundred thousand landscape architects in our membership, but according to the International Labour Organization, there are about a million landscape architects in the world. So, and I generally say this because not only do numbers have an impact, but also there is sometimes the conception that we are a very small profession, and we are not. We have many people out there doing a great job.

We focus on capacity building around education. So, helping emerging countries and setting up good educational programs in landscape architecture. We help existing programs to improve through our recognition and accreditation programs. To make sure that not only are they up-to-date but also they have the facilities, the staff, and the knowledge to deliver those programs. We provide support and training to academic staff where they may not feel comfortable delivering some of that knowledge. We pair them up with other academic staff across the world and provide training around that. We also provide support in establishing professional bodies in countries that do not have one yet.

It's a process, you know. First, you need educational programs, then you have graduates, then you have professionals, and then we mentor them all the way through until we get to the establishment of the professional body. We do all the activities for our members, from webinars to world congresses, that we do every year. Also, we have our regional hubs that do far more events.

At the IFLA global, or the IFLA world as we call it, the international organization, a very strong mandate of ours is really to work alongside the United Nations and the allied professions. We are of the opinion that we need to be at that table and be part of those discussions because if we can educate and affect policy at that highest level, it will permeate down as it gets into conventions or regulations, which countries will need to adopt. Then we can have a far more regulated and protected profession than what we currently have in some countries, where there's a huge disparity from countries where the profession has a licensure program and the titles are protected to countries where they can't even use the word “architect” because it's protected by law.

So, that's the disparity we have across the world, and that's what we try to work with at the global level, but also put pressure at the national level to show them that this profession does exist, it has regulations, it has a very thorough process of education. There are many examples in the world where [the profession] is highly regulated and protected by law. But also to make sure that countries understand that if they're looking at their building acts or architecture acts and their legislation, it's very important to define what each professional does, and not just deliver it. So, that's in a nutshell what IFLA tends to look into.

Annetta Benzar: As president of IFLA, how have you seen the organization shape the global landscape of architecture, especially during your tenure?

Dr. Bruno Marques: Well, over the last two years, since I started in 2022, one of my main goals was always to focus on building partnerships with the UN agencies, and we have been quite successful with that. We have UNESCO, which we have worked with since the 1960s because we have a joint scientific committee under UNESCO that is managed by ICOMOS and IFLA on cultural landscapes, but more recently, we have been very active with UN-Habitat, the UN Environments Program, the UN Development Program, and WHO with their urban health component. We've been fostering all those relationships to make sure that they understand what we can offer in those discussions.

We have many alliances with architects, planners, and public health practitioners, and we're also building up on those and reigniting some of those connections that, unfortunately, with the pandemic, got a little deteriorated. But we’re also building new ones with the public health, the ISUH, the International Society for Urban Health, the International Association for Horticultural Producers, with our more specialized organizations around education in terms of the European Council of Landscape Architecture Schools, the Council of Educators in North America. We've been trying to make those connections stronger with the World Green Infrastructure Network and the Urban Biodiversity and Design Network. We try to align our mission with what they do. I think that's been quite helpful because it lets us understand where the pressure points are at the global level, particularly across the United Nations, and how we can help in those issues. By working alongside our sister organizations, we have a much stronger voice as well. I'm of the opinion that we can't do this alone, we know that has failed miserably in the past. We need to break those silos, and by working together, I think that's where interesting solutions come along.

We have been quite active in building our partnerships. I think this year has been quite successful. Even if you look into the different COPs, the COP16 for biodiversity, the COP29 for climate change, and the COP16 for desertification, that is just happening in Riyadh. So, we have many activities and sessions that are collaborative with other organizations, and I think that's been quite instrumental in IFLA's elevating its profile as well.

Of course, there are other things that we've been doing as well. We are going through a self-reflection period to understand our corporate governance a little better and how we can change the way we do things to become more efficient. The last time that we did this was 12 years ago. IFLA was much smaller than what it is nowadays, so we need to streamline or have a much more agile structure that allows us to do things more efficiently than what we currently have. So, we're also looking internally at what sort of changes we need to make to become that more robust and agile organization in what we are, and of course, part of that is to have an image and visibility. This is another thing I've been investing time into; for us to make sure that the brand gets recognized but also that we have a forward-facing attitude toward what we do as an organization. That's been the three pillars of what we've been focusing our time.

Annetta Benzar: You came into the presidency right after COVID. What were some of the challenges that you faced coming out of a global pandemic as a landscape architect and as somebody who is leading an international organization?

Dr. Bruno Marques: I came into [IFLA] when most countries were lifting all their restrictions, so I got the moment when everyone was desperate to reconnect. The first event we had in South Korea was in August 2022. There were still a lot of restrictions, and so people were still very apprehensive about the future. But then, when we had our next event in 2023. We had this crazy idea where we had two different locations for the event happening simultaneously, so we were both in Stockholm and Nairobi. We had such a high turnover because people were just desperate to reconnect, not just personally with their friends whom they hadn't seen for a little while, but also eager to engage in discussions and be face-to-face and to have that more personal contact. So, I think that was easy to address because I think all of us could relate to that.

The other challenge, or one of the biggest challenges, was what I just mentioned before, trying to reignite some of those connections that unfortunately got a little damaged by the pandemic. Either people got overburdened with other things, or there was a change in leadership, and new people came in and you needed to start from scratch. That's probably been the most demanding part to reignite some of those connections and to make sure that we're all peddling in the same direction. I think apart from that, the other challenges are very, very minimal. There was nothing extreme that we needed to overcome.

Annetta Benzar: IFLA recently launched “WORKS with Nature: Low Carbon Adaptation Techniques for a Changing World.” Before discussing this guide, can you define the term “nature-based solution”?

Dr. Bruno Marques: The way we have been seeing it is used quite broadly. I think this is a very funny term because you can hear it in many different ways. Nature-based solutions, ecosystem services, engineered nature solutions, and deep down, our bread and butter, landscape architecture. That's what we do; we work with nature. What we tried to do with this guide was really to highlight the different facets of what nature could be and could provide through this guide. This started probably two, or three years ago in one of the COPs. I think it was the COP in Egypt in 2022 where with all the engagements we had at that time, there was a piece of the puzzle that was missing. That was landscape.

The way that we tend to look at the landscape is very fragmented. We look into the landscape not as a holistic thing but as breaking it into different components. There's biodiversity, there's climate change, there's water, without understanding that they are all interlinked. And I think that has been our biggest pressure point with the United Nations agencies to make sure that they acknowledge that landscape is something far more holistic than just the different components. In that regard, we have been trying to work with them for the last 10 years on getting an international landscape convention off the ground that recognizes and aligns with this idea.

This particular guide is aimed at any professional in a built environment who can see how nature can be used in the different facets and how, through that, into strategies that are far more local and regional. Because we are getting to a point where everything starts to look the same. We're getting to an issue of homogenization of landscape as well. What we're trying to defend here is that you need to look locally for sourcing your materials to reduce the carbon footprint, especially your plant material, because they are far more attuned to the climate than importing from across the globe, which will probably struggle to survive.

We probably need fewer engineered solutions and more nature in our cities for the different parts in terms of contributing to the health and well-being of people but also contributing to the local ecosystem services and so on. So that's what we're trying to accomplish with this guide.

[The guide] runs alongside an app that was launched two years ago that was to map the carbon footprint of projects. As a practitioner, you can go there and launch all the different constituencies of your projects and try to understand how much carbon footprint the project will create and how you can reduce it. What sort of strategies do you have to reduce them? This is the first piece. I do think there will be more coming in the near future.

Our idea is that every year, there will be more added to this, but it's just to start to create awareness about the importance of nature.

Annetta Benzar: How has the public received the guide? Have you had any feedback?

Dr. Bruno Marques:  We have had very good feedback from our practitioners that they've been really enjoying engaging with the material and the app. They are getting far more conscious as well in terms of the way they design.

And I think the general public, particularly our allied organizations, also welcomes the guides in a very positive way because they also feel it's kind of bridging a little gap that exists in the discourse around nature-based solutions. I think so far, thumbs up, but it launched two or three weeks ago, so there is still, I think, a lot to digest.

Annetta: A few weeks ago, at the World Urban Forum 12 in Egypt, IFLA and UN-Habitat signed the Memorandum of Understanding, the MOU, to formalize their partnership. What does this partnership between IFLA and the UN-Habitat represent for global urban development? And what initiatives can we expect to grow from this partnership?

Bruno Marques: This started some years back when the UN-Habitat had a very strong mandate on urban settlements, and we engaged with them in different forums before, where we again thought that the landscape architecture's voice was very subdued in that discussion. We started to work with them on how we could bring more nature to the forefront and a little less around buildings.

That has been working relatively well to the point where we started thinking, let's formalize this into an MOU where we can provide you the expertise for the different programs you have and also provide expertise every time you look into policy development to make sure that the interests of landscape architects are well represented. So, the MOU just formalizes that.

There's, of course, more in terms of sharing resources and also making sure that we attend each other’s events and that there is visibility for both ends. There is also a component of research if we identify what sorts of projects you would like to develop together and how we're going to make sure that those will have interesting outcomes for society at large. The other thing that it also stipulates is potentially looking into a joint award so that we can globally start looking into successful stories and how we can award those successful stories. It's quite a comprehensive MOU, and I think we are still navigating what will be the different takes and how we're going to make it work.

But from a landscape architecture perspective, this is quite an important milestone because it makes sure that our voice is heard and represented and that we can also make sure that in any policy statement that gets developed, we make sure that the correct language is used. Most of the time, it's not that we have been intentionally ignored, but I think semantics are very important, and we need to make sure that the right wording is used for the interests of all of those who work in a built environment.

Annetta: I'm interested in your work with Therapeutic + Rehabilitative Designed Environments / Taiao + Tumahu’ (TRDE). Could you share the organization's mission and some of the prominent research projects you have been working on with them?

Bruno Marques: I think this research lab appeared out of desperation in a way. And all the things we've been talking about in this interview, in terms of just understanding that everyone was previously so siloed and working in their own little bubble. You'd go to public health officials, and they have all this data, they have no idea what to do with it. Then you're going to the built environment, and people need to design or do their work, but they don't have the evidence to support that.

We ran a project for two or three years where we were trying to break those silos away. We had people from public health, medicine, sociology, the built environment, architecture, and landscape architecture, but we also had people from engineering and technology on board because that was also a very strong mandate to make sure that how we use technology to get some of these things going. It was a little bit experimental at the time, but then we started seeing that, again, the role of facilitation from the built environment professions and trying to make those connections and translate that information into concrete things was quite successful.

Our mission was definitely to look beyond the traditional concept of a therapeutic garden and try to understand that the entire environment should be therapeutic and rehabilitative, regardless of the size of where you are. So, how could we make our cities not only therapeutic in a way, as you go outside and just have access to nature is going to be good for you, but also that the environment can be designed to help you rehabilitate in particular chronic diseases. We did a lot of experiments with materials that we could change pavements, diagnose early dementia by challenging the gait of people, and see how quickly they would react and recover their balance.

[We monitored] through the use of technology. We could challenge gradients and slopes to allow people to start exercising. We tested a lot as well with plants, not so much the color and the texture but also in terms of how the composition of those plants would contribute to attracting birds and other insects into the local ecosystem.

There's a lot of experimentation around that. Some of those projects are still going on different tangents now, but with the base core understanding that whatever environment you are in, it should be therapeutic and rehabilitative. That can be a small pocket park somewhere in a much wider region.

How that region is also orchestrated to link all those different components together so that nature can function, but also people can be part of that system. We've been exploring all those ideas.

Annetta: One of the concepts that you mentioned in some of the research is healing spaces. How would you define healing spaces and what is their relationship to urbanism, sustainability, and mental health?

Bruno Marques: I think a healing space is a space where people can feel connected. And that connection can be through the physicality of the space and the materials.

It can also be the spiritual connection to that space. I think in the context we operate here in New Zealand as a bicultural country where we have these two paradigms: the Western paradigm, which is very individualistic, and the Indigenous paradigm, which is very collective.

It's very intergenerational as well because it's a culture that is very much based on oral knowledge that has been passed on to the next generation. We're trying to bridge how we can move from that very Westernized approach where everyone minds their own business to an approach where health is perceived in the different facets that compose health beyond the physical aspect. How can a healing space be designed with that in mind? Maybe a space that has a cultural significance.

How can we honor the place naming? How can we honor the narratives of that place? How can we bring back that connection to the local ecosystem, to the local plants, and the local birds? How can that space allow for that spiritual liberation, but also to a communal sort of engagement where you can bring your family? Maybe it's grandparents bringing their grandchildren, maybe it's their parents, as they talk about those narratives of the space to their grandchildren. They also try to engage, let's say, with some sort of equipment that allows them to exercise but also allows them to squirt water at the kids. It's going to be a play activity that's going to be fun for them. So, we're trying to blur the boundaries between those two paradigms and to make sure that whatever we get at, it's a far more balanced outcome for the different cultures that we have in this country.

Annetta: We've already started talking about Indigenous knowledge and kind of merging the two communities. What are some of the aspects of indigenous knowledge that you think are key to kind of healing today's crises, especially within the urban environment?

Bruno Marques: I think the idea of regionalism is looking into what's local and what is specific to the context that we are in. I think in the society we live in nowadays, where everything moves and changes so quickly, we are getting again to the point where most of our urban environments look alike.

It doesn't matter if you're looking at the skyline of a city and you don't know if you're in New York, Singapore, or Sao Paulo because they all look the same. I think what Indigenous knowledge brings is the idea of how we can ground in that place. How can we honor the essence of that place? How can we make it local? How can we contextualize some of that information? I think in the very quick pace that we live in, we are eager at times just to slow down and reconnect to our roots. I think that it's very important to learn from Indigenous knowledge to make sure that you understand that you are part of this holistic system and understand that you are a part of nature and part of a wider system but also to understand that there is an essence to a place. There is meaning to a place. There are those invisible layers to a place that is actually what defines us as people of that place.

Regardless if you are from here or not from here, that's what's going to allow you to grow your roots even. If you are in this place now, how can you make the best of it? How can you link and connect to what's local? I think that's the beauty of Indigenous knowledge. One size does not fit all. I think that one of the biggest learnings that we tend to forget a lot in the Western world is that we're always trying to find that standardizing. We want one size that fits all because it's quicker, it's more efficient, it's cheaper.

I think with Indigenous knowledge, it's the other way around. How can we find what's local and precious and what's going to make it unique and specific to that area, to that city, to that region, rather than everything looking the same? And I think that it's almost, in a very metaphorical way, it's almost like the landscape telling you to slow down and connect to what makes you feel better, to what's important to you.

Is that your being? Is that your extended family? Is that the nature around you? Is that a combination of all of those? I think that's where we navigate, and I think that's the beauty of Indigenous knowledge. It is really to celebrate what's local and what's specific to that area, but also put nature at the forefront and make aware that you are part of this big system. That it's not only about you. It's about you and all these other people and all these layers of complexity and how much you can respect it.

Annetta: One value that I think the Indigenous community really emphasizes in their culture is the practice of storytelling. I find [this practice] connects to landscape architecture in terms of the type of stories your practitioners are trying to relate through their general work, their research, and some of the more practical aspects of their profession. Can you comment on this connection between the two?

Bruno Marques:  That's where everything starts. In the context of New Zealand, I think one of the most important steps in relationship building is first understanding who we are, why we are here, and what we want to accomplish. Once we can trust each other and we know who we are and who we represent, then it's about understanding and celebrating the essence of the landscape. And that's done through storytelling.

I find it fascinating that in our Maori tribes, we can go back three or four centuries, and they know exactly where things happen. There was no written language until the settlers arrived in New Zealand. So it was all done orally, but they can identify even their original canoes that arrived in the 1300s in New Zealand. I think that's quite amazing. But also the way they relate to landscape, they're never going to start by telling you, “Hi, my name is…” They will tell you, this is my mountain, this is my lake or my river, or my ocean, depending on which body of water they relate to. And then they will go down the list. They will tell you the name of the canoe that got here. They will tell you the tribe they are part of, the sub-tribe. The name of the grandparents, the parents. Their name is the last thing they will tell you because that's the most irrelevant part.

What they are doing is they are providing you with the context. They are contextualizing who they are in a big picture of things in that landscape. So it's almost like modern geotagging, in a way. They will tell you the geolocation. This is where I'm coming from in the country, and what's important to me. This is what defines me as a person. This is my identity. My identity is not, you know, I'm tall, I have blue eyes and brown hair and whatever. But my identity is these features of this landscape. That's what defines me and my ancestors. And that's my genealogy. That's my heritage.

I think that's quite powerful because that's something that in the Western world we have lost. I remember growing up in Portugal; I remember my grandma having a very strong land connection. She would know what the plants were good for. This one is for a stomachache, for a headache. She would know, again, like all the seasons that were good for sowing the seeds and to harvest. Again, based on the lunar calendar almost. That [type of] knowledge is pretty much gone. If you go back to our generation because people don't know that stuff anymore.

That's what our Indigenous communities hold so preciously in their heart, that knowledge. They are afraid that knowledge will be stolen and used in an inappropriate way, as it has been done in the past. In New Zealand, we had serious issues with pharmaceutical companies coming here and getting to know the medicinal properties of plants and then just commercializing them, showing no sense of ethical responsibility or acknowledgment that was not [the pharmaceutical companies’] knowledge. Our Indigenous communities have been mistreated globally, so they are also very apprehensive. You know, why do you want to know this? And what are you going to use it for? And how will it benefit our community? So, there's that ethical stewardship and responsibility towards that knowledge.

It's quite complex in a way, but I think it just brings us all these principles that, unfortunately, we have lost over the decades in terms of being respectful and protective of knowledge, as well as being mindful of our elders who have that knowledge.

Annetta: And bringing this all down, what is your vision of a future city?

Bruno Marques: I think a city that everyone feels happy to live there. So I mean, it doesn't matter if you are a kid or an older adult. A city where everyone has a green space nearby in which they can just walk and be in nature. A city where the quality of living is just very high, where everyone feels they are part of this bigger and more complex system but that city is actually there to support them rather than making their life miserable.

That's what we need to think more about. A city where I think nature is at the forefront rather than nature as a secondary thought. And I think that's what we try to battle a lot too as landscape architects but also as the International Federation of Landscape Architects. To make sure that nature is not an afterthought, nature is not a silly investment that you can just cut the funds upfront because you don't see the use of it. There are many studies that tell us for every dollar that you invest in nature, you return four.

I think that's what we are here for, to make sure that our local authorities, our regional authorities, our national governments are very aware of [the current research into nature-based solutions]. Nature should be at the front of anything we do and that should be the vision for a city as well.

Annetta: To finish off, how do you keep yourself mentally resilient and very positive? And what advice would you give our audience for strengthening their connection to nature and their community?

Bruno Marques: Oh gosh, I ask myself that question every day. You know, as I said, I think there are always two ways of looking at a problem, right? You can look at a problem from a negative point of view, or you can look at a problem as an opportunity.

It's almost like that theory when you're talking about something and you start saying no, NO BUT, which leads you immediately to be critical and negative, or if you have the attitude of yes, YES AND, that's a great idea, and we can do this, and we can do that. And I'm more of that kind of person.

And that really is what excites me and what keeps me getting out of bed in the morning. But I think for us to keep sane and resilient, we just need to find those inner places that make us happy. And I think for me, it's also very important to disconnect and just go to the places that are important to me, like being in nature or just going to the beach and just being there.

We all need those places of respite where we can recharge and just keep on. I think one of the key learnings that you have quite a lot here in New Zealand, which I think I find so precious, is that you work to live, you don't live to work. And I think, you know, coming from Europe, we have forgotten that. People are working longer, and their lives are just insane. But I think here in New Zealand, and also in Australia, people are still very protective of their time in a way. I do my job, and I do it efficiently from nine until five. But then after that, I also want to go and do the things that are important to me, my hobbies, my walks in nature. I think that work-life balance is important. I hope that we can keep that in mind because the reality is, not only in Europe but other places too, the numbers are quite overwhelming in terms of people not having a life outside of work.